======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: gadgetpjt@aol.com (Gadget PJT) Date: 20 Apr 1997 00:33:15 GMT I thought I ought to take this discussion out of that thread, cos it's gonna get a bit too techie for the original question. Surff's wrong, Gadget's wrong, Anton's Wrong, we're all wrong, everythings wrong... err... well... no... but... There are no absolutes to hang onto here. Gadget writes: > Another fallacy is that shortboards are faster than longboards. In some instances yes, others no [I'll expand later]. "Anton" writes: > Hmmm... I don't think so. Greater surface area = greater drag. Yup, that nail firmly struck, given that bottom contours are the same. A flat bottom of greater surface area can create less drag than a deep vee of lesser area. >I was just reading about this in a design forum somewhere. >I turns out that the fastest board is actually short >and fat Well... close. For a given surface area a short and fat shape will plane better than a long thin one, go skim some stones and see. Or check out the short/fat vs long/thin frigate controversy of the late Eighties [British Navy stuck with the long/thin type, purely because they were a better weapon platform]. I think the skimming of stones might be more fun. > with minimal rocker... Dead flat, with no vee would plane like a demon, but would also be exceptional in the pearling stakes. surffohio@aol.com (SurffOhio) writes: > No, longboards are faster. Why are paddleboards 12' plus? > You get a longer stroke with a longboard, so there is more power > generated, and you go faster. A greater planing area will, for a given load, plane earlier [at a lower speed]. I think where the confusion is being generated, is that Surff is talking about paddling the board into the wave [at which longboards are faster], and Anton is on about riding the wave. You are not going to hit the surface area/drag problem just paddling [even knee-paddling]. So is it agreed that a longboard is gonna beat a shortboard in a paddling race? So... onto the riding... In a shallow wave with little energy to spare, a longboard ridden by a relative kook is going to go quicker than a shortboard with some pro on it wiggling his butt. In steep waves the tables may get turned, when a longboard might lose out due to drag at higher speeds [but I tend to think this would have to be damn fast]. Bigger problems in steep waves are, making the drop [manoeverabilty] and not spinning out [due to fat rails and outline]. Things to bung into the equation: how fat the surfer is, how heavy his log is, how strong [s]he is, how steep the waves are, how big the waves are, how quickly they are breaking, rocker, bottom contours, outline, are there others I missed? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gadget [Bude, Cornwall, UK] email: gadgetpjt@aol.com Just cos its got a big name, it don't mean it go no faster -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: "Anton" Date: 20 Apr 1997 07:36:06 GMT > > In a shallow wave with little energy to spare, a longboard ridden by a > relative kook is going to go quicker than a shortboard with some pro on it > wiggling his butt. > In steep waves the tables may get turned, when a longboard might lose > out due to drag at higher speeds [but I tend to think this would have to > be damn fast]. Bigger problems in steep waves are, making the drop > [manoeverabilty] and not spinning out [due to fat rails and outline]. > > Things to bung into the equation: > how fat the surfer is, > how heavy his log is, > how strong [s]he is, > how steep the waves are, > how big the waves are, > how quickly they are breaking, > rocker, > bottom contours, > outline, > are there others I missed? > Thank goodness we cleared all that up. In good waves (which is all we seem to have around here really), I'm going to stick to my claim that a shortboard is quicker. The whole problem of drag is actually quite significant at the speeds attainable on a decent 8-10' wave. You can also "wiggle your butt" on a shortboard and build up a lot of speed by pumping down the line. Can't seem to do that on my longboard (yet), although maybe someone else can... ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: Fred Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:55:01 +0000 > > Things to bung into the equation: > > how fat the surfer is, > > how heavy his log is, > > how strong [s]he is, > > how steep the waves are, > > how big the waves are, > > how quickly they are breaking, > > rocker, > > bottom contours, > > outline, > > are there others I missed? > > > The whole problem of drag is actually quite > significant at the speeds attainable on a decent 8-10' wave. Despite Newton showing otherwise several hundred years ago, I think that a lot of people are still under the impression that gravity accelerates heavy objects faster than light objects. With that said, there are really only 3 things to consider: Takeoff speed(push from the wave, paddling speed, etc); drag(that which slows the board down); the rider(how heavy, how good). Seems like a longboard would be slower, but I can recall seeing a video of Jerry Garcia riding a bodyboard and zipping past longboarders and shortboarders. And this was way back when bodyboards where first invented and probably weren't as fast as they are now. I would have to say that the rider is a *VERY* important part of the equation, though obviously long-thin boards have *PROVEN* themselves as the fastest among those who surf big waves spots, have they not? Also, does fin design effect speed to any great extent? Fred TubeTime! - http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/2303/index.html ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: dagum@barrel.nospam (Leo Dagum) Date: 22 Apr 1997 17:34:18 GMT In article <335B718F.CD@geocities.com>, Fred writes: |> > > Things to bung into the equation: |> > > how fat the surfer is, |> > > how heavy his log is, |> > > how strong [s]he is, |> > > how steep the waves are, |> > > how big the waves are, |> > > how quickly they are breaking, |> > > rocker, |> > > bottom contours, |> > > outline, |> > > are there others I missed? |> > > |> > The whole problem of drag is actually quite |> > significant at the speeds attainable on a decent 8-10' wave. |> |> |> Despite Newton showing otherwise several hundred years ago, I think that |> a lot of people are still under the impression that gravity accelerates |> heavy objects faster than light objects. In the absence of drag, you're right in saying that heavy objects fall at the same speed as light objects. However drag will slow down a lighter object more than a heavy object, so that's why in the real world heavy objects usually fall faster. |> With that said, there are really only 3 things to consider: |> Takeoff speed(push from the wave, paddling speed, etc); |> drag(that which slows the board down); |> the rider(how heavy, how good). |> The rider is *key*. The rider can accelerate the board by pumping and driving down the line. It's probably accurate to say that longboards trim at a faster speed than shortboards, but a good rider can accelerate a shortboard more quickly and to faster speeds than a longboard. |> |> I would have to say that the rider is a *VERY* important part of the |> equation, though obviously long-thin boards have *PROVEN* themselves as |> the fastest among those who surf big waves spots, have they not? Well no, not really. They've proven that they can get into big waves earliest, but everything I've read from big wave riders indicates that all that extra board is pretty much useless to them once they're in the wave. Speed is rarely an issue in big surf, you get all the speed you need from the wave. Speed is essential in small junky surf. In small surf most average riders will get longer and faster rides on a longboard than a shortboard simply because they're not good enough to keep the shortboard going, especially when the wave sections or backs off etc. Small errors in technique, e.g. not keeping it on a rail the whole time, slightly stalling on turns, projecting too far out, etc. cost you a lot more in small surf because you can't recover from them. If you think about bigger surf though (and I don't mean GIANT surf, just head high or more) a lot of times you're actually trying to bleed off speed, e.g. stalling for the barrel, roundhouse cutbacks etc. Those moves are all the result of having too much speed. |> |> Also, does fin design effect speed to any great extent? |> Yes, it makes a huge difference. Single fins are fastest because they have the least drag. Thruster's are slowest having the greatest drag. Twinzers, quads and twins are progressively faster than thrusters. Most classic longboards I see are either single fin or trifin (i.e. one big center fin with two little side fins, I think these have less drag than a thruster set up) and seem to be designed for optimal trim speed. There's also a class of "performance" longboards that people ride with lots of rail-to-rail type maneuvers like a shortboard, I don't know much about those although I do own one. (It's a twinzer, but that's not very common for longboards, it is pretty common in hybrids though.) - leo -- Leo Dagum Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA 94043 (415-933-2179) ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: szborges@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) Date: 23 Apr 1997 22:24:07 GMT Leo Dagum (dagum@barrel.nospam) wrote: : to bleed off speed, e.g. stalling for the barrel, roundhouse cutbacks : etc. Those moves are all the result of having too much speed. With all due respect, not really Leo. Both of those moves are more about a wave that has a wall that is mushing or tapering down. You do the cuttie or stall to get back into the juice or to stay in the juice (and because roundhouses are fun). It's not that you have too much speed. It's that the wave isn't perfect and building endlessly and doesn't have enough speed or power for you and the board. This is especially important on a twin or thruster, where bogging down is the last thing you want to do. The roundhouse gives you a way to maintain momentum, keep the board from gettin bored. : |> Also, does fin design effect speed to any great extent? : |> : : Yes, it makes a huge difference. Single fins are fastest because : they have the least drag. Thruster's are slowest having the greatest : drag. Twinzers, quads and twins are progressively faster than thrusters. : Most classic longboards I see are either single fin or trifin (i.e. one big : center fin with two little side fins, I think these have less drag : than a thruster set up) and seem to be designed for optimal trim speed. Classic longboard and trifin are mutually exclusive! And, I think the big center/small side deal is more about turning than trim speed. Per your own statements the single is the fastest (debatable if there's a rider aboard ;=>). The little "training wheels" are really just trying to provide additional looseness, which costs in drag (and in that the board is trying to kick out, turbulence etc). The side fins may also help hold in on steep walls, but the same can be achieved sans drag with a longer center singlefin, pulled-in tail etc. : There's also a class of "performance" longboards that people ride with : lots of rail-to-rail type maneuvers like a shortboard, I don't know much : about those although I do own one. (It's a twinzer, but that's not : very common for longboards, it is pretty common in hybrids though.) Most "performance" longboards are thruster setups of one kind or another. I think a singlefin longboard can perform just as well if you're used to the stick, plus they noseride and trim better than thrusters. Just need a good shaper! However most serious longboard performers choose thrusters, in part because near-constant turning is seen to = "performance". Still, I'm always amazed at how long the pro longboarders manage to noseride thrusters. Not as easy as they make it look. Will ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: dagum@barrel.nospam (Leo Dagum) Date: 24 Apr 1997 18:30:34 GMT In article <5jm267$a7q$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>, szborges@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) writes: |> |> Leo Dagum (dagum@barrel.nospam) wrote: |> |> |> |> : to bleed off speed, e.g. stalling for the barrel, roundhouse cutbacks |> : etc. Those moves are all the result of having too much speed. |> |> With all due respect, not really Leo. Both of those moves are |> more about a wave that has a wall that is mushing or tapering down. You |> do the cuttie or stall to get back into the juice or to stay in the juice |> (and because roundhouses are fun). It's not that you have too much speed. |> It's that the wave isn't perfect and building endlessly and doesn't have |> enough speed or power for you and the board. Seems like we're saying essentially the same thing. If you didn't have "too much" speed, then you wouldn't be able to do the cuttie (or need to stall). Either way you look at it, in bigger surf with modern equipment and some basic ability, speed is rarely an issue. |> |> : There's also a class of "performance" longboards that people ride with |> : lots of rail-to-rail type maneuvers like a shortboard, I don't know much |> : about those although I do own one. (It's a twinzer, but that's not |> : very common for longboards, it is pretty common in hybrids though.) |> |> Most "performance" longboards are thruster setups of one kind or |> another. I think a singlefin longboard can perform just as well if you're |> used to the stick, plus they noseride and trim better than thrusters. Just |> need a good shaper! However most serious longboard performers choose |> thrusters, in part because near-constant turning is seen to = |> "performance". Still, I'm always amazed at how long the pro longboarders |> manage to noseride thrusters. Not as easy as they make it look. I have to agree with this. I'm pretty much a longboard kook, but I can still shuffle up to the nose on my old (ancient) single fin Allen 9'4". On the Haut twinzer 9'6" I'm lucky to get a couple feet past the center. But I don't think the fin set up is as important for noseriding ability as is the rocker. The Allen is flat like an ironing board, the only rocker seems to be from thinning out the nose and tail. The Haut has a more modern shape and you can surf it from the tail. On the Allen though, you have to run to the nose straight after the bottom turn or it'll just bog in the soup. (But even riding soup on that thing is fun because it's so heavy that it cuts through it without getting bounced around, a real cadillac ride :-)). - leo -- Leo Dagum Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA 94043 (415-933-2179) ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: szborges@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) Date: 26 Apr 1997 16:02:12 GMT Distribution: Leo Dagum (dagum@barrel.nospam) wrote: : Seems like we're saying essentially the same thing. If you didn't have : "too much" speed, then you wouldn't be able to do the cuttie (or need : to stall). Either way you look at it, in bigger surf with modern equipment : and some basic ability, speed is rarely an issue. Not "too much" speed in general (is there such a thing?), but too much down-the-line momentum for that particular wave. You need to stall because either you have run out in front of the juice, or there just isn't much of a shoulder. Cutbacks are fun, but IMHO even more fun are waves that don't require them, are barely makeable. Re: speed not being an issue in bigger surf, i.e. that there is speed to burn and the trick is focusing and controlling it, generally that's true but there are some big mushy waves that require trimming and momentum-accumulating activity to have much fun on them. : I have to agree with this. I'm pretty much a longboard kook, but I can : still shuffle up to the nose on my old (ancient) single fin Allen 9'4". : On the Haut twinzer 9'6" I'm lucky to get a couple feet past the center. : But I don't think the fin set up is as important for noseriding ability : as is the rocker. Good point, but I think they are both important. Your Haut twinzer, even tho rather huge at 9'6", has a sweet spot further back. I don't think Doug set it up as much of a noserider. The Allen is flat like an ironing board, the only rocker : seems to be from thinning out the nose and tail. The Haut has a more : modern shape and you can surf it from the tail. Wouldn't say rocker = modern shape. There was a fad back in the Sixties, primarily on Velzy boards, of extreme rocker to the joke level. Those banana boards didn't surf for shit, and the fad went away real fast. But yeah, in general modern longboards have more rocker than in days of old. Still, I think the reason the Haut surfs better from the tail is more about wide point and bottom tweaks and not much meat at the nose than rocker, plus the fact that it's a multi-fin. This gets back to what I said somewhere else about the "throttle" on a twin, etc. being on the tail. I always feel on a twin that if I kind of stomp down right over the fins, the board immediately starts to haul ass. This seems more true of boards with a tunnel in the middle, i.e. twins, quads etc, than with thrusters. On a thruster my weight seems to be more spread over both feet. I'm not sure how much rocker really has to do with noseriding. Main things to me are nose configuration (concave, downrail, stepdeck etc) and tail stuff like width, and especially fin configuration and depth. I think a fairly pulled-in tail and a long single fin are best for noseriding. I like the fin to be flexy as well, for snappy bottom turns. : On the Allen though, : you have to run to the nose straight after the bottom turn or it'll just : bog in the soup. (But even riding soup on that thing is fun because it's : so heavy that it cuts through it without getting bounced around, a real : cadillac ride :-)). That's cool Leo but it's important to distinguish between nose riding and near-nose trimming. Sounds like the trim point for the Allen is up near the nose somewhere, as is usually the case on older longboards. Being up there is the "throttle". Going past the max trim point however is usually going to be a stall. A classy stall I might add. It's real cool to hang 5 or 10 as a stall, then as the juice catches up to you step back slightly for max trim. By fading forward and back between these 2 positions on a long wave such as Rincon, one can have a hell of a lot of fun, and never have to do a cutback. Unless you want to, cutties are fun too! Or need to because there is a temporary flat spot. Minor redirections, such as fading slightly left at Rincon as the wave wraps into the cove, can generally be done near the nose, as can climbing and dropping. But only if the fin is well locked into the pocket. The sweet spot or trim point on your Haut is farther back, plus as a multi-fin it tends to want to be turned a lot, so all that makes it less of a noserider. While it will not handle waves over 8' or so very well, this 8'6" Robert August singlefin I ride up to that size (if it's clean i.e. Rincon) is great because it noserides quite well (needs a fair amount of wall tho as it's real thin and concave up there, bogs in mush) but also turns real well off the tail. Boils down to the shaper, and how his magic (or lack thereof) interacts with the rider's ability (or lack thereof). Unfortunately this stick is getting pretty battle-scarred... Will ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: g@unforgettable.com (Gioni Pasquinelli) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:18:33 -0700 This is a great discussion guys, keep it going! Can you go into more detail about a stepdeck? What it is and does? And what kind of board should I be looking for? I have been surfing for a little over a year going maybe once a week on an 8 foot older egg shaped board. I wanna move up to a long board, prolly about 10' (cause I weigh 270). But single fin, multi-fin, 3 boxes so I can play around with the fin setup? What about stepdecks, concaves, what kind of rails, etc? I mostly ride Pleasure Point, mostly First Peak but occasionally Sewer's or even Rockview. I am ok on my 8 footer but could improve quite a bit. Thanks, G ============================================= Gioni "G" Pasquinelli e-mail: pasqueatispdotnet web-page: http://www.isp.net/~pasque ============================================= ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 26 Apr 1997 18:13:01 GMT In article <5jm267$a7q$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Will Borgeson wrote: >... It's not that you have too much speed. >It's that the wave doesn't have... enough speed... The surfer has too much, the wave has too little, these are just semantical quibbles. You'll both agree that the surfer is going faster than the wave and needs to get back to the curl/pocket. -- .-``'. Timothy B. Maddux, Ocean Engineering Lab, UCSB .` .`~ http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ _.-' '._ "From the essence of pure stoke springs all creation." ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: westy79@aol.com (Westy79) Date: 27 Apr 1997 06:10:45 GMT I don't think you are correct in saying that the longboard is faster in small surf only because people can't move it as well, and that a shortboard can go faster is you pump it correctly. What you are describing is basically flailing, creating the illusion that you're going faster because your board is smaller. There's just no way to make up for the lack of floatation by 'pumping'. The shortboard doesn't come into its own until the waves are at least waist to shoulder high, depending on how fast the spot is breaking. Dominic "shortboarder" and "longboarder", but just a surfer ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: szborges@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) Date: 30 Apr 1997 18:34:49 GMT Westy79 (westy79@aol.com) wrote: : I don't think you are correct in saying that the longboard is faster in : small surf only because people can't move it as well, and that a : shortboard can go faster is you pump it correctly. What you are : describing is basically flailing, creating the illusion that you're going : faster because your board is smaller. There's just no way to make up for : the lack of floatation by 'pumping'. The shortboard doesn't come into its : own until the waves are at least waist to shoulder high, depending on how : fast the spot is breaking. : Dominic : "shortboarder" and "longboarder", but just a surfer The right shortboard *can* go faster in small surf if ridden in a certain way, and there's a difference between pumping and flailing. Boards such as twins, twinzers and quads can go particularly fast, apparently because of the open "venturi" tunnel between the fins, that seems to suck water thru. I've seen many a competent longboarder (including myself) passed by a competent shortboarder. I think both long and short are fun and have merit - for me it's a matter of all the conditions as to which I choose to ride on a particular day. Will ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: dagum@barrel.nospam (Leo Dagum) Date: 1 May 1997 16:47:41 GMT Westy79 (westy79@aol.com) wrote: |> I don't think you are correct in saying that the longboard is faster in |> small surf only because people can't move it as well, and that a |> shortboard can go faster is you pump it correctly. What you are |> describing is basically flailing, creating the illusion that you're going |> faster because your board is smaller. There's just no way to make up for |> the lack of floatation by 'pumping'. No, that's not true at all. You can accelerate a short board by pumping it, it's a similar effect to pumping on a swing, or pumping a skateboard on a ramp. The lighter and more maneuverable the board, the faster you can pump it. You can pump a longboard but you won't get as much acceleration out of it as a shortboard because it's heavier and less maneuverable. By "pumping" I don't mean the huntington hop, I mean either short or long period (kind of depends on the wave shape and situation) rail to rail gyrations. Really good surfers can get a bit of speed out of every turn. I don't claim to be a really good surfer, but I do understand the principle and can pump a board well enough to believe that it works. Question to spongers: Can you pump a sponge if you're riding prone? I don't see how it would work. On a board you have to be able to move your center of mass relative to the board, and riding prone on a sponge you don't have enough range except for maybe some really quick rail to rail gyrations on a wall. - leo -- Leo Dagum Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA 94043 (415-933-2179) ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: Fred Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 12:17:21 +0000 Leo Dagum wrote: > Question to spongers: Can you pump a sponge if you're riding prone? > I don't see how it would work. On a board you have to be able to move > your center of mass relative to the board, and riding prone on a sponge > you don't have enough range except for maybe some really quick rail to rail > gyrations on a wall. Yes, you can pump a sponge, with more effect than a longboard I'd say. One thing about riding a bodyboard is that you really feel the wave(because of the size and flexibility) so when you pump it you can get in time with the wave. In fact, on days where I'm not really sure where the takeoff is going to be I'll often pump into the wave on takeoff. I know that I'm not the only one who does this, but I imagine it is the most effective with a bodyboard because of the small size and flexibility. Fred TubeTime! - http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/2303/TubeTime.html ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: dano@west.ne*t (dano) Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:12:36 -0700 >: I don't think you are correct in saying that the longboard is faster in >: not "shortboarder" and "longboarder", but just a surfer > >The right shortboard *can* go faster in small surf if ridden in a >certain way, and there's a difference between pumping and flailing. The key might be the rider's ability then? >Boards such as twins, twinzers and quads can go particularly fast, >apparently because of the open "venturi" tunnel between the fins, that >seems to suck water thru. IIRC, the venturi effect requires a compressible fluid like air. Water isn't compressible though, and may not support this. -- The unsolicited email is getting out of hand...Change the return address to west.net. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: gar@lisi.com (Garrett Lisi) Date: 5 May 1997 16:11:25 GMT Cc: szborges@dilbert.ucdavis.edu In <5k83c9$b2s$1@mark.ucdavis.edu> Will Borgeson wrote: > The right shortboard *can* go faster in small surf if ridden in a > certain way, and there's a difference between pumping and flailing. > Boards such as twins, twinzers and quads can go particularly fast, I posted my physics geek assessment of pumping and twinzers to this group a couple of years ago. I won't repost without a request, but here's a URL: http://heaviside.ucsd.edu/supg/phys.html Shaka, Garrett -- .-===_ A.Garrett Lisi ^+^ gar@lisi.com .' / \ ^+^ http://heaviside.ucsd.edu/g.html .' |\o \ Physics Department and -' | h\ Institute for Nonlinear Science ___/(_ \^ University of California, San Diego ='____.\ `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'~~~~\{~ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: Tauras Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:31:57 -0700 Fred wrote: > Seems like a longboard would be slower, but I can recall seeing a video > of Jerry Garcia riding a bodyboard and zipping past longboarders and > shortboarders. We're talking ice cream. Right? > I would have to say that the rider is a *VERY* important part of the > equation, though obviously long-thin boards have *PROVEN* themselves as > the fastest among those who surf big waves spots, have they not? Thin is relative to the shape and sytle of the board. If you are trying to say foiled gun shape pin tail then yes. Harder rails do give more control but at a cost of SPEED. Remember speed is not the #1 concern in riding big waves, to some control is the key. There is a lot happening on the rail of your board. Hard rails provide fast release at the board water interface at planning speed to give top speeds when run flat. When railed over while turning or toob riding it will bite and give control at the expense of speed. The pin template is key to keep the water line long and straighter and giving the board good holding and positive bite on your turns, yet keeping it fast. Always choose the proper tool for the job is an addage that holds true in surfing just like in life. Match the wave to the style you ride and choose the right board to maximize your stoke for the moment. > Also, does fin design effect speed to any great extent? But of course "grasshopper" ... friction is a drag ;) -- ~~~~Tauras Sulaitis~~~~ <<>> http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: "Anton" Date: 22 Apr 1997 23:20:49 GMT Fred wrote in article <335B718F.CD@geocities.com>... > Despite Newton showing otherwise several hundred years ago, I think that > a lot of people are still under the impression that gravity accelerates > heavy objects faster than light objects. > With that said, there are really only 3 things to consider: > Takeoff speed(push from the wave, paddling speed, etc); > drag(that which slows the board down); > the rider(how heavy, how good). > > Seems like a longboard would be slower, but I can recall seeing a video > of Jerry Garcia riding a bodyboard and zipping past longboarders and > shortboarders. And this was way back when bodyboards where first > invented and probably weren't as fast as they are now. > > I would have to say that the rider is a *VERY* important part of the > equation, though obviously long-thin boards have *PROVEN* themselves as > the fastest among those who surf big waves spots, have they not? > > Also, does fin design effect speed to any great extent? > > Fred > TubeTime! - > http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/2303/index.html > > > I think one of the major misconceptions is that guns are fast. They're not really, although they certainly are fast to paddle (which is pretty important if you want to get into a 30 footer a little early). The main purpose of a long, thin board is to be able to handle the speed generated by surfing large waves. There is no problem getting enough speed down a 30 foot face, the problem is not spinning out etc. I really don't know about fin design, though... That's an interesting thought. Anton ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: szborges@dale.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) Date: 20 Apr 1997 14:40:12 GMT Good job Gadget. Couple more thoughts: a longboard gets speed by careful attention to trim, which translates into momentum. On a long, building wall like Rincon, it's amazing how fast you can get going on a longboard, and how critical the sections you can make. However, one wrong move can rob momentum and blow the ride by placing you too late for the peeling wall. Shortboards and mini-guns get speed in a different way, especially multi-fin boards (singlefin guns behave a lot like longboards, but at a much higher energy level of course). Multifin boards such as thrusters and twinzers get *much* more of their speed from what the rider does. And, what the rider must do if he or she wants speed, is to pump turns. More specifically, what must be done is to repeat the fall-line, gravity energy of the initial drop-in. This is done by doing a series of off-the-lips, each followed by a drop and bottom-turn. The trick is 1) to be doing these as deep in the wave as possible, where there is more verticality and general push (the "squirt factor" cannot be ignored), and 2) to scrub off as little speed as possible with the off-the-tops and bottom turns. I think one reason surfers like Cheyne Horan and Tom Curren have dabbled in short single-fin shapes is that they can permit a style that is not driven by turning required by the board shape (if that makes any sense). You have the option of turning, or just trimming and styling, even in the tube. It's interesting to look back at 70's surf movie footage. People were jamming some hard turns on the little singlefins, but there was also some mellow stylin goin on. Now the films are all turns and stunts. It's interesting how multi-fin boards have changed tube-riding. On a longboard or gun, you basically trim up in the barrel, maybe grab a rail, and hope you get shot out. Can't do that on a thruster or twinzer, really, as it will soon get "bored" and bog down. Have to keep it turning. So we have seen the evolution of maneuvering in the tube. IMHO, this is not done for the sheer joy of it. It is instead done to keep up the necessary speed to make the wave. Just a few ramblings... Will ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: david@crumblingempire.com (david ryan) Date: 21 Apr 1997 02:49:28 GMT In article <5jd9sc$rc6$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>, szborges@dale.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) wrote: > It's interesting how multi-fin boards have changed tube-riding. On a > longboard or gun, you basically trim up in the barrel, maybe grab a rail, > and hope you get shot out. Can't do that on a thruster or twinzer, > really, as it will soon get "bored" and bog down. Have to keep it > turning. So we have seen the evolution of maneuvering in the tube. IMHO, > this is not done for the sheer joy of it. It is instead done to keep up > the necessary speed to make the wave. Just a few ramblings... so this is what is wrong with the way i am surfing all these stand up barrels! no more trim and hope for me, from now on i'll be pumping in the tube! d.r. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 21 Apr 1997 22:34:55 GMT In article <5jd9sc$rc6$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Will Borgeson wrote: > So we have seen the evolution of maneuvering in the tube. IMHO, > this is not done for the sheer joy of it. It is instead done to keep up > the necessary speed to make the wave. Just a few ramblings... To me one of the ultimate stokes is not only making it through a superfast section of a wave but also the response and feel of driving up and down to make it. The two go hand-in-hand and each helps to up the amp-o-meter in its own way. -- .-``'. Timothy B. Maddux, Ocean Engineering Lab, UCSB .` .`~ http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ _.-' '._ "From the essence of pure stoke springs all creation." ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: gleshna@aol.com (Gleshna) Date: 20 Apr 1997 14:58:00 GMT My $.02: Longboards paddle faster than shortboards. Shortboards turn and accelerate faster than longboards. Which has the fastest top speed? What are used in large waves and why? What do windsurfers use for speed runs? Bob ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: In Search of Speed [was Longboard vs. Shortboard] From: tweedt@aol.com (Tweedt) Date: 21 Apr 1997 14:17:45 GMT In article <19970420145700.KAA27214@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gleshna@aol.com (Gleshna) writes: > >My $.02: > >Longboards paddle faster than shortboards. > >Shortboards turn and accelerate faster than longboards. > >Which has the fastest top speed? What are used in large waves and why? >What do windsurfers use for speed runs? Windsurfers found out quickly that smaller, narrower boards are faster in planing speed situations, and as soon as they perfected the way to get up and going without standing on the board and pulling the sail up, they quit riding floaters for wavesailing and highspeed runs. The only need for length in large waves is for paddling power, since you can't ride what you can't catch. The longer the board, the faster it can go in hull-speed-limited situations, without planing, since the maximum speed of a displacement hull is a function of waterline length. As soon as you break loose and step up on a plane, the less surface area, the better. This is why Laird and the tow-in crew use 7-8' boards about 16" wide for riding huge waves, strapped in. If you don't have to worry about paddling to catch the wave, smaller (and heavier) is faster. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Tweed La Jolla, CA e-mail: tweedt@ucsd.edu or tweedt@aol.com "Don't let your mouth write no check that your tail can't cash." -- Bo Diddley --------------------------------------------------------------------------