======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: jona@aloha.net (jona) Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 08:57:55 GMT I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. (We all know what is supposed to be the correct way, right?) face of the wave just before it breaks some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks open ocean deep water swell size back of the wave consensus (I heard others say it was ___ feet) conservative (in Hawaii this would be ____ feet) local standards (in our locality it would be ___ feet) double (or whatever) overhead ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: mesa2@ix.netcom.com(Rick Ciaccio) Date: 11 May 1996 16:22:39 GMT In <31945395.7187375@nuhou.aloha.net> jona@aloha.net (jona) writes: > >I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to >take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. >(We all know what is supposed to be the correct way, right?) > > face of the wave just before it breaks > some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks > open ocean deep water swell size > back of the wave > consensus (I heard others say it was ___ feet) > conservative (in Hawaii this would be ____ feet) > local standards (in our locality it would be ___ feet) > double (or whatever) overhead > Around here the general consensus is: 4 foot swell reported means overhead surf; 6 foot swell means double overhead; 6 foot S Wedge swell means triple overhead+ :-) We judge 'em from trough to lip with a surfer on it, we always refer to wave size by face. We always refer to Wedge wave size by "Simpson Scale" (Fred's (of Viper Fins) own interpetation) which has become the standard, much like the illogical Hawiian way of calling them. Generally, we reduce it to "good", "fun", "pounding", or "slamming", that pretty much says go out. When posting in alt.surfing I call them in face size from trough to lip as they pitch (honest). Rick ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 10:21:43 GMT jona@aloha.net (jona), jona wrote: > I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to > take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. > (We all know what is supposed to be the correct way, right?) Interesting question as there are surfers from all parts of the world here. > some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks Top 2/3 as seen from the beach. This eliminates the run out in front of the face as it is not steep enough to derive any power off, but still looks like "height" from the front. Ric -- _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 14 May 1996 00:07:22 GMT In article <831896536.28780.0@diltd.demon.co.uk>, Ric Harwood wrote: >Top 2/3 as seen from the beach. >This eliminates the run out in front of the face as it is not steep >enough to derive any power off, but still looks like "height" from >the front. What about when you're surfing those gnarly suckout reefs where the aforementioned "run out" is actually a steep concaving below-sea-level nightmare? -- Tim Maddux -- tbmaddux@engineering.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara Surfing -- http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 12:44:47 GMT In alt.surfing, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux), Timothy B. Maddux wrote: >In article <831896536.28780.0@diltd.demon.co.uk>, >Ric Harwood wrote: >>Top 2/3 as seen from the beach. >>This eliminates the run out in front of the face as it is not steep >>enough to derive any power off, but still looks like "height" from >>the front. >What about when you're surfing those gnarly suckout reefs >where the aforementioned "run out" is actually a steep >concaving below-sea-level nightmare? I wouldn't know, [as I'm suffering from a sucking reef defiency {:^( ] How would _you_measure these? Ric -- _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: OceanRider Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:42:18 -0700 Ric Harwood wrote: > > In alt.surfing, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux), > Timothy B. Maddux wrote: > > >In article <831896536.28780.0@diltd.demon.co.uk>, > >Ric Harwood wrote: > >>Top 2/3 as seen from the beach. > >>This eliminates the run out in front of the face as it is not steep > >>enough to derive any power off, but still looks like "height" from > >>the front. > > >What about when you're surfing those gnarly suckout reefs > >where the aforementioned "run out" is actually a steep > >concaving below-sea-level nightmare? > > I wouldn't know, > [as I'm suffering from a sucking reef defiency {:^( ] > > How would _you_measure these? > > Ric > -- > _____________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________ > PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ Hey I've got a great idea!!! All of you sit on the beach and figure out how big the waves are, while I go surfing! My favorite surfer is the one sitting on the beach anyway! Happy figuring, Glenn ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 19 May 1996 16:10:52 GMT In article <832250717.10929.1@diltd.demon.co.uk>, Ric Harwood wrote: >[ Tim Maddux wrote: ] >>What about when you're surfing those gnarly suckout reefs >>where the aforementioned "run out" is actually a steep >>concaving below-sea-level nightmare? > >I wouldn't know... how would _you_measure these? From the beach at a safe distance away, or by having a friend photograph me as I get pitched over the falls, then using my outstretched 6' frame to accurately measure the wave heights. The amount of my body sticking straight up out of the water upon impact into the sand or reef could also be easily used to determine the depth of water at breaking as well. -- Tim Maddux -- tbmaddux@engineering.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara Surfing -- http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: szborges@dale.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson) Date: 22 May 1996 15:33:12 GMT In case anyone is interested, here's Willy Bascom's technique for measuring wave height from shore: "Simply stand on the beach at such a level that the tops of the breakers are exactly in line with your eye and the horizon. The vertical distance between your eye and the 'backrush curl' (upper edge of water on the beach) is equal to the height of the breaker." So, if you're 6' tall and there's about 12' of height between the top of your head and the waterline, you're looking at 12' faces. This technique can be useful if there's no one out, the surf looks pretty big, but is way out there and hard to judge. Will ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: mundaka@acca.nmsu.edu (mundaka) Date: 13 May 1996 16:09:41 GMT Double or whatever overhead. (Kinda hard to judge feet anyway.) -- ---No hay pedo!--- ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: "N. Briggs" Date: 16 May 1996 02:17:08 GMT Seems to me that if you estimate the wave size in proper feet (the ones used on land) then half if, you're getting close. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: "N. Briggs" Date: 16 May 1996 02:17:09 GMT Seems to me that if you estimate the wave size in proper feet (the ones used on land) then half if, you're getting close. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: jritchie@iafrica.com Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:36:51 -0700 jona wrote: > > I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to > take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. > (We all know what is supposed to be the correct way, right?) > > face of the wave just before it breaks > some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks > open ocean deep water swell size > back of the wave > consensus (I heard others say it was ___ feet) > conservative (in Hawaii this would be ____ feet) > local standards (in our locality it would be ___ feet) > double (or whatever) overhead Here in Cape Town we also have these arguments. Lank of my friends judge from the front, but where I come from (Victoria Bay) it was judged at the back. I'm so used to 6 feet being way overhead (1 foot being knee-height, 2 feet being waist to chest height, 3 feet being chest to head height, 4 feet just over head height, 5 feet being overhead) that when my friends tell me a size, it's completely different (usually smaller) than what I imagined... Craig ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:23:25 GMT Jona, I'd say (2) "some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks" and like Ric and Craig, it's about 2/3rds of the shoulder. To me, a 4 foot wave is a 6' face. Set waves (say best of six), not the average. Predicting waves is my job and I'm amazed at the lack of consensus on wave heights. If we used Hawaiian scales here in the UK it'd be inches, not feet. And then there's the French who use something called "metres". As long as we're consistent, we'll understand each other. Maybe it'd be better to say "shoulder-hopping", "head high", "overhead" or "double overhead". Good thread, Graham Big G. graham@big-g.win-uk.net ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:27:07 GMT In alt.surfing, graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop), Graham Harrop wrote: >As long as we're consistent, we'll understand each other. Maybe it'd >be better to say "shoulder-hopping", "head high", "overhead" or "double >overhead". I'm liking this more and more. But then I chat to my knee board friend and we have to convert in and out of feet again 'cos he keeps talking about these shoulder high "overhead" waves! Ric -- All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop) Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:19:38 GMT In article <832278456.4373.3@diltd.demon.co.uk>, Ric Harwood (Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk) writes: >In alt.surfing, graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop), Graham >Harrop wrote: >>As long as we're consistent, we'll understand each other. Maybe it'd >>be better to say "shoulder-hopping", "head high", "overhead" or "double >>overhead". > >I'm liking this more and more. But then I chat to my knee board >friend and we have to convert in and out of feet again 'cos he >keeps talking about these shoulder high "overhead" waves! Oooh, you bitch, Mail bomb on the way, Graham. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:16:56 GMT In alt.surfing, graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop), Graham Harrop wrote: > >In article <832278456.4373.3@diltd.demon.co.uk>, Ric Harwood (Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk) writes: >>I'm liking this more and more. But then I chat to my knee board >>friend and we have to convert in and out of feet again 'cos he ^^^^^^^ >>keeps talking about these shoulder high "overhead" waves! >Oooh, you bitch, Not at all. *he's* the lucky one who hets to surf overheads all the time! >Mail bomb on the way, {;^P >Graham. Ric -- All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: salmonm@batis.bis.und.ac.za (MR Salmon) Date: 23 May 1996 08:53:03 GMT Ric Harwood (Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In alt.surfing, graham@big-g.win-uk.net (Graham Harrop), Graham : Harrop wrote: : >As long as we're consistent, we'll understand each other. Maybe it'd : >be better to say "shoulder-hopping", "head high", "overhead" or "double : >overhead". : I'm liking this more and more. But then I chat to my knee board : friend and we have to convert in and out of feet again 'cos he : keeps talking about these shoulder high "overhead" waves! : Ric : -- : All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: : http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ : _____________________________________________________________ : : ______________________________________________________________ : PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ Who really gives a shit? The only people who you should be able to relate to are your friends - as long as you say a 6 foot wave and they know hwat you're talking about, then you're fine. Judging wave size is never gonna be consistent world-wide, so who cares? MATT ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: njtravis@cse.lbl.gov (Nancy Jean Travis) Date: 23 May 1996 16:29:26 GMT In article <4o191f$q30@Raven.und.ac.za> salmonm@batis.bis.und.ac.za (MR Salmon) writes: >Who really gives a shit? The only people who you should be able to relate >to are your friends - as long as you say a 6 foot wave and they know hwat >you're talking about, then you're fine. Judging wave size is never gonna be >consistent world-wide, so who cares? > >MATT Now I like calling them small. If I say it was 3 foot, my friends understand it was pretty hot. I remember a Billabong Pro at the Lane when Munga took a barrell as big as the cliff and the announcer called it 12. F#$k, I thought, its 25 easy. I remember it intimidated me horribly. On another day at Sewers which I would have called 15 foot, Moth was screaming its a perfect 5! I couldnt even get out the back that day. Now I just cut the face in half and subtract a foot. This really irks people who have an attachment to reality which is even more amusing. So yeah, the day I surfed North Point in Cowaramup it was a lovely six feet, double overhead bombs. B-). The wave I broke my board on was a solid 3 foot, hahaha. fang ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: the Sandman Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:08:52 -0700 Nancy Jean Travis wrote: > > In article <4o191f$q30@Raven.und.ac.za> salmonm@batis.bis.und.ac.za (MR Salmon) writes: > > >Who really gives a shit? The only people who you should be able to relate > >to are your friends - as long as you say a 6 foot wave and they know hwat > >you're talking about, then you're fine. Judging wave size is never gonna be > >consistent world-wide, so who cares? > > > >MATT > > Now I like calling them small. If I say it was 3 foot, my friends > understand it was pretty hot. I remember a Billabong Pro at > the Lane when Munga took a barrell as big as the cliff and > the announcer called it 12. F#$k, I thought, its 25 easy. > I remember it intimidated me horribly. On another day at Sewers > which I would have called 15 foot, Moth was screaming its > a perfect 5! I couldnt even get out the back that day. > Now I just cut the face in half and subtract a foot. > This really irks people who have an attachment to reality > which is even more amusing. So yeah, the day I surfed > North Point in Cowaramup it was a lovely six feet, double > overhead bombs. B-). The wave I broke my board on was a > solid 3 foot, hahaha. > we've alot of kooks round here that have to plug the actual wave size in a function() ;-) to get the the wave size that they'll tell you. For the life of me I don't understand it. I guess my life is complicated enough not to add another layer to it. What I see is this; I'm surfing in double-0 conditions and they're on the beach debating wave height. Kooks unite and hash out a standard. When your done, paddle out and let me know...if ya can -- the Sandman http://www.whammer.com Odds are, you're probably a kook ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: leepadr@coastalnet.com (Lee Padrick) Date: 17 May 1996 19:46:30 GMT Craig: I agree for the most part with your size descriptions. I'm from North Carolina, stand 6' 3" tall and usually call a chest-high wave about 3 feet. I usually amused by shorter guy (or girls) who call chest-high 5 feet (or larger). But then again, if you get pitched by an 8-foot peak, you're gonna fall 8 feet! Lee Padrick ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Einstein Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:21:04 -0500 Dude I am 5'10" and learned a three feet wave is over my head from the inside. Lee Padrick wrote: > > Craig: > > I agree for the most part with your size descriptions. I'm from North > Carolina, stand 6' 3" tall and usually call a chest-high wave about 3 feet. > I usually amused by shorter guy (or girls) who call chest-high 5 feet (or > larger). But then again, if you get pitched by an 8-foot peak, you're gonna > fall 8 feet! > > Lee Padrick > -- "Imagination is more important than knowledge!" Einstein mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net http://mars.superlink.net/einstein netscape 2.0 or better http://mars.superlink.net/einstein/einstein.html others ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: JIMSLADE@msn.com (James ) Date: 20 May 96 03:45:38 -0700 Who cares? If it swells, ride it! I've been listening to this shit for years and it doesn't matter how you measure a wave, its how you surf it! If your not sure just look at it and make up a good lie like everyone else! ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: robt2@ix.netcom.com(robert brannan ) Date: 20 May 1996 05:03:18 GMT All wave size judgement is correct for your locale, it more reflects the consistency and size range for your area. We measure reams of cloth in yards, height of men in feet, cigarette length in millimeters. However for waves, we all use feet, but each geographic locale has a different consistency and size range,-- thus we change or stretch or shorten our rulers. It gives us all a better feel for the variability of size that exitsts at our own breaks. I've seen some winter's so consistent with new 4-6'swells every 3-4 days and bigger, that when I pass a friend and ask for a report and viceaversa, we would just reply " It was good, it will be good tomorrow" or "It was good, it will be smaller tomorrow" ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: gjohnson@dream.season.com (Reality is a point of view) Date: 20 May 1996 18:08:53 GMT +---- robt2@ix.netcom.com wrote (20 May 1996 05:03:18 GMT): | I've seen some winter's so consistent with new 4-6'swells every 3-4 | days and bigger, that when I pass a friend and ask for a report and | viceaversa, we would just reply | " It was good, it will be good tomorrow" | or "It was good, it will be smaller tomorrow" +---- I've heard a similar suggestion for call/fax/net surf reports. -- Gary Johnson "There's no union called the AFL-CIA is there?" gjohnson@season.com Walk The Talk CAMPAIGN '96: Juck 'em if they can't fake a toke. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: sponge@news.ohana.com (Neal Miyake) Date: 15 May 1996 16:47:40 GMT In Hawaii, we "measure from the back," meaning, we essentially cut the wave face height in half. The reason (I think) is because of Californians in the 50s and 60s sandbagging to surprise newcomers to the islands. I know it's stupid, but it's the standard that everyone uses. Nowadays, if you don't call it like the locals do, you'll be put down big time. The local media, especially the radio, perpetuate the underestimating. So, three feet is head high, six is double overhead. Don't even ask what twenty-five is. When I was working at the Eddie in 89, I asked the judging panel how big they thought it was. There was a long silence before someone (I think Jack Shipley) said, "Overhead!" I guess only Ken Bradshaw is allowed to make the call at Waimea. Interesting personal observation: a six foot wave in the Country is bigger than a six foot wave in Town. sponge P.S. Right now, Town is one-to-two feet. ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: surffohio@aol.com (SurffOhio) Date: 15 May 1996 23:18:40 -0400 In article <4nd1rc$l09@rigel.pixi.com>, sponge@news.ohana.com (Neal Miyake) writes: >In Hawaii, we "measure from the back," meaning, we essentially cut the >wave face height in half. It seems like cutting the wave face height in half is not very precise. Would it depend on the break characteristics, how much water is sucked out, etc? > The reason (I think) is because of >Californians in the 50s and 60s sandbagging to surprise newcomers to the >islands. I know it's stupid, but it's the standard that everyone uses. Apparently the reason is due to scientific fact. See below. Today my daughter got her Exploring The Ocean book from World Book. They had a chapter called Wave Makers. The following is an excerpt. "The height of a wave is measured from its crest to its trough. The crest is the wave's highest part or peak. The trough is the lowest part, the depression the wave makes in the water's surface." The picture illustrated the trough as being the depression between two waves, not the face before it closes out on the beach. So, with the above data the Hawaiians and World Book are in full agreement. I am glad. I don't want to see my 10 year old get confused. :-) This does bring up a question. If one is riding 25 ft Waimea is he dropping down a 50 to 75 foot face? Or, is the face height used since it would sound much more significant than a 10 to 12 footer? If I dropped down a 25 ft face at Waimea, I would at least feel like I had ridden a 25 ft wave (after I had gotten done peeing all over myself). Sorry Rick C., I guess you've been getting pounded by 3 footers at the Wedge all this time. :-) I want my damn money back for all those pics you sold me of the Wedge!!!! Ok...........just kiddin. Surff ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:27:09 GMT In alt.surfing, surffohio@aol.com (SurffOhio), SurffOhio wrote: >In article <4nd1rc$l09@rigel.pixi.com>, sponge@news.ohana.com (Neal >Miyake) writes: >>In Hawaii, we "measure from the back," meaning, we essentially cut the >>wave face height in half. >It seems like cutting the wave face height in half is not very precise. >Would it depend on the break characteristics, how much water is sucked >out, etc? > >Apparently the reason is due to scientific fact. See below. >Today my daughter got her Exploring The Ocean book from World Book. They >had a chapter called Wave Makers. The following is an excerpt. >"The height of a wave is measured from its crest to its trough. The crest >is the wave's highest part or peak. The trough is the lowest part, the >depression the wave makes in the water's surface." >The picture illustrated the trough as being the depression between two >waves, not the face before it closes out on the beach. >So, with the above data the Hawaiians and World Book are in full >agreement. >I am glad. I don't want to see my 10 year old get confused. :-) Sure. If this were sci.geo.ceanography the waves are described by these characteristics: L= Wavelength, [peak to peak, trough to trough...] C= speed, [don't let's get started on that one.] T= period, [time for one L to pass a point, or time between zero upcrossing periods.] H=Height [Vertical height between bottom of trough and top of peak.] a= Amplitude [Displacement from Mean Sea Level, (H/2) ] Steepness [ H/L ] k= wave number [ 2pi/L] and a few other more obscure ones. When you look at the face of a wave from the beach you see H. However you will usually see a surfer playing on just the top 2/3 of this H because the bottom 1/3 tends to not be steep enough to surf, even on a steep wave. Perhaps this is rather different on very abrupt reef edge breaks. I'd be interested to see a description from those with more experience of these than I do. [that must include a lot of you, because I don't have any yet... {:^( ] ATB Ric -- All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: mesa2@ix.netcom.com(Rick Ciaccio) Date: 17 May 1996 02:13:02 GMT Doesn't every clique or group have their unwritten or unspoken way of communicating? We use words like "pound" and "slam", or at the other end of the scale "queenie". When you include the word "pound" in your sentence why do you need to measure it? Rick ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 17 May 1996 22:55:44 GMT In article <4ne6qg$638@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, SurffOhio wrote: >Apparently the reason is due to scientific fact. See below. > >Today my daughter got her Exploring The Ocean book from World Book. They >had a chapter called Wave Makers. The following is an excerpt. > >"The height of a wave is measured from its crest to its trough. The crest >is the wave's highest part or peak. The trough is the lowest part, the >depression the wave makes in the water's surface." > >The picture illustrated the trough as being the depression between two >waves, not the face before it closes out on the beach. > >So, with the above data the Hawaiians and World Book are in full >agreement. [ rant mode on ] Actually, they are not in agreement. Wave height as the World Book defines it it is precisely the distance from the top of the crest to the bottom of the trough. So, a breaking wave's height would be the distance from the top of the crest to the bottom of the trough, at the exact moment when the wave *just* begins to break, or when the water particle velocity at the crest is equal to the wave's phase speed , and the lip just starts throwing out. To put it another way, the "height" of a wave is always defined in the same manner, be it a breaking wave, shallow water wave, or deep water wave. If you had a wavewire out in a Hawaiian break, under monochromatic wave conditions (all the same height and period), the wire would record exactly the same difference in water surface elevation from the crest of the wave to the trough in front as it breaks as the difference from that breaking elevation to the trough after it passes by, i.e. the backside. The only way to get away with describing a measurement as "from the back" and actually MAKING such a measurement is by doing so on a very shallow water reef surrounded by open-ocean depth water. Each wave crest could approach and shoal and break while the following trough and crest behind it were still at their deep water values and essentially negligible. Then the distance from trough behind to breaking crest would approximately be half that of the breaking wave in front. Hawaiian reefs, however, shoal up more gradually than this, as evidenced by many photos in the mags of lines of black walls to the horizon. [ rant mode off ] They're not measuring from the back, they're just dividing the actual breaking height by 2. >This does bring up a question. If one is riding 25 ft Waimea is he >dropping down a 50 to 75 foot face? Roughly 50 feet, yes. -- Tim Maddux -- tbmaddux@engineering.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara Surfing -- http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick) Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 23:04:50 -1000 In article <4nj05g$q1r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) wrote: > >Hawaiian reefs, however, shoal up more gradually than this, as evidenced >by many photos in the mags of lines of black walls to the horizon. > Another possibility is that those black walls _are_ essentially open-ocean waves. > >They're not measuring from the back, they're just dividing the >actual breaking height by 2. Well, theory aside, I do measure from the back. When I see a surfer kick out and the backside that he's coming down on is twice his height, that's about a twelve foot wave. If you watch the next set come in from the front, the wave is probably four times the surfer's height from top to his bottom turn; that's twenty-some feet. After a few years of guessing wave heights and getting agreement (or ridicule) from the bruddahs, you know what the local standards are. (They do vary on different parts of Oahu.) I'm not disputing your definition of wave height (at least it's consistent) or the behavior of monochromatic waves. Theory's good for wave tanks. >>This does bring up a question. If one is riding 25 ft Waimea is he >>dropping down a 50 to 75 foot face? > >Roughly 50 feet, yes. Agreed. -- Doug Frick dfrick@hcc.hawaii.edu dfrick@lava.net ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 13:14:49 GMT In alt.surfing, dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick), Doug Frick wrote: >In article <4nj05g$q1r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu >(Timothy B. Maddux) wrote: >> >>Hawaiian reefs, however, shoal up more gradually than this, as evidenced >>by many photos in the mags of lines of black walls to the horizon. >> >Another possibility is that those black walls _are_ essentially >open-ocean waves. Not really AFAIK, the ocean swell waves [deep water, depth>(L/2) will have a height of a couple of meters or so and a length of the order of a couple of hundred meters. Wave looking steep and dark are generaly feeling the bottom. Ric -- All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 19 May 1996 16:23:41 GMT In article , Doug Frick wrote: >Another possibility is that those black walls _are_ essentially >open-ocean waves. Open-ocean waves are exemplified by incredibly low steepness... a 10 ft. 20 s. wave has an open-ocean wavelength of gT/2pi = 31 m, which means the 3 m of height difference is spread out over 15 m, not much of a wall. >Well, theory aside, I do measure from the back. When I see a surfer >kick out and the backside that he's coming down on is twice his height, >that's about a twelve foot wave. Ah, but you're not waiting long enough... if you wait for him to get ALL the way down the back, which would be in the trough of the approaching wave as it begins to throw, then the backside and front side would appear about the same. Once a wave starts to break, its carried energy starts to dissipate, which is seen in a reduction of the wave's height. So if you watch the backside of the wave as he floats down it, you'll notice that it's decreasing as it moves shoreward. >After a few years of guessing wave heights and getting agreement >(or ridicule) from the bruddahs, you know what the local standards >are. (They do vary on different parts of Oahu.) As my surf reports show, I just use face-of-wave estimates based on human proportions (v.s. a 6' tall person). It's my understanding that this is still o.k. in the Islands, i.e. a 3' Hawaiian wave or 6' Cali wave are both about head-high... right? -- Tim Maddux -- tbmaddux@engineering.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara Surfing -- http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: carley@manly.civeng.unsw.edu.au (James Carley) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:04:19 GMT tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) wrote: >Open-ocean waves are exemplified by incredibly low steepness... a >10 ft. 20 s. wave has an open-ocean wavelength of gT/2pi = 31 m, >which means the 3 m of height difference is spread out over 15 m, >not much of a wall. Sorry to be a smartarse Tim but your theory is a bit wrong. Deepwater wavelength should be L= gT^2/2pi or L = 1.56 T^2 where T is wave period which for your 20 s period wave gives L = 624 m or more realistically T = 15 s gives L = 351 m Someone else wrote: >>After a few years of guessing wave heights and getting agreement >>(or ridicule) from the bruddahs, you know what the local standards >>are. (They do vary on different parts of Oahu.) This describes the macho height system well, it's all about peer group acceptance rather than science. Do they call their 9' board a 4'6"? I'm another who measures waves scientifically as part of my job. In real terms this means that a head high breaking wave is ~6 feet. When discussing with pseudo machos I use the HEAD scale or sometimes to confound them (and in my own reference scale) I say an X metre face 'cause metric is the future. James Carley Water Research Laboratory University of New South Wales Sydney, Australia James Carley Sydney, Australia carley@manly.civeng.unsw.edu.au ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:34:55 -1000 In article <4nouvj$9k2@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, carley@manly.civeng.unsw.edu.au (James Carley) wrote: >Someone else wrote: > >>>After a few years of guessing wave heights and getting agreement >>>(or ridicule) from the bruddahs, you know what the local standards >>>are. (They do vary on different parts of Oahu.) > >This describes the macho height system well, it's all about peer >group acceptance rather than science. Do they call their >9' board a 4'6"? The topic of this thread is "How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE?" _You_ judge it scientifically. That's nice. But if you come to Hawaii and say you ride fifty-foot waves, nobody is going to believe you. The scientific measure you're using is nothing more than a method accepted by your 'science' peer group. I'm not saying there isn't a standard scientific measure, it just isn't the one used where I surf. (And I made that disclaimer in my post.) My 9'6" is 9'6", as agreed upon by my peer group of measuring tape owners. -- Doug Frick dfrick@hcc.hawaii.edu dfrick@lava.net ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) Date: 24 May 1996 00:24:08 GMT In article , Doug Frick wrote: >The topic of this thread is "How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE?" _You_ judge >it scientifically. That's nice. But if you come to Hawaii and say >you ride fifty-foot waves, nobody is going to believe you. Would they believe me if I called a double-overhead wave as 6 feet, assuming everyone accepts that the wave really is double-overhead on the face? Most people in the area where I surf use "faces" and "backs" to make the distinction between full-sizing and half-sizing the wave heights. There's usually very wide scatter in the assessment of wave heights, most easily judged from land and most adrenaline-elevated when ducking them. I have my own bias when making reports, I won't typically report the larger heights of set waves unless I either surf a few myself or get pounded by them in a noteworthy fashion. Otherwise it just doesn't count. -- Tim Maddux -- tbmaddux@engineering.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara Surfing -- http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~tbmaddux/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:49:29 -1000 In article <4nnhud$lbo@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) wrote: >In article , >Doug Frick wrote: >>Another possibility is that those black walls _are_ essentially >>open-ocean waves. > >Open-ocean waves are exemplified by incredibly low steepness... a Yeah, I saw I was wrong on that one after I went and looked in my ocean textbooks. On big north swell days at Makaha, you can watch the sets going by on the horizon, perpendicular to shore (Makaha faces west), as well as watching the (wrapped) sets coming straight in. >>Well, theory aside, I do measure from the back. When I see a surfer >>kick out and the backside that he's coming down on is twice his height, >>that's about a twelve foot wave. > >Ah, but you're not waiting long enough... if you wait for him to get >ALL the way down the back, which would be in the trough of the approaching >wave as it begins to throw, then the backside and front side would appear >about the same. Yes, that is true. I'm _not_ waiting twenty or so seconds to make my guesstimate (and believe me, I'll be about ten feet under the water when that next wave pitches). But that's my point. I'm not attempting to duplicate the scientific measure here. The method I use yields an answer consistent with the local description of wave size, which is what I'm trying to achieve. >As my surf reports show, I just use face-of-wave estimates based on >human proportions (v.s. a 6' tall person). It's my understanding >that this is still o.k. in the Islands, i.e. a 3' Hawaiian wave or >6' Cali wave are both about head-high... right? That's usually correct, and if you say "head-high" (as opposed to 6') people will know what you mean. I'll stick my neck out here, and call a wave. I have a picture of me out bodysurfing: http://www.lava.net/~dfrick/mz-1.jpg . Slapping a ruler up on my monitor yields a face height of about 4 inches. From my head to my outstretched hand is about 1/2 inch = 3 feet. So I'd guess the face height is about 24' (do people actually say "quadruple overhead"?). From my memory, I'd call this wave about a 10-footer, on a 12'+ day. What matters most is that people know what the other person means, whether backs, faces, heads, or scientific. When I quote Hawaii waves, I usually put (backs) after the height. When I go to the Washington coast, I switch to quoting face sizes. When I look in the databases, I expect scientific measure. They all have their place. -- Doug Frick dfrick@hcc.hawaii.edu dfrick@lava.net ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: ric@diltd.demon.co.uk (Ric Harwood) Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:37:27 GMT In alt.surfing, dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick), Doug Frick wrote: >What matters most is that people know what the other person means, >whether backs, faces, heads, or scientific. When I quote Hawaii waves, >I usually put (backs) after the height. When I go to the Washington coast, >I switch to quoting face sizes. When I look in the databases, I expect >scientific measure. They all have their place. That's exactly it IMHO. I the scientific context we would use meters, peak to trough, but at the beach that is meaningless in that everyone else there is using different 'scale', and each area has it's own scale. [almost but not quite entirely unlike feet]. Which _is_ why jona started the thread in the first place. The interesting/confusing thing here in alt.surfing is that there are people reading and posting from all these different places, so it takes is hard to get the hang of what everyone means by "x foot", especially as many of us have not yet had the opportunity of surfing the world and knowing the length of the local ruler. [Indeed the pleasure of a.s is being in touch with people who are out getting stoked all over the world] Certainly the body sized ruler seems to the thing to use. We all know how big out local "feet" are, and most of us will be within a couple of 'heads' of 6' tall. Good thread Jona, thanks. Ric -- All the best European Surf Forecast and Weather Links on: http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ _____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ PGP: 0766ABE5 | Homepage http://area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~ric/ ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: tdstearns@aol.com (TDStearns) Date: 18 May 1996 07:23:43 -0400 its pretty clear that feet and meters arent too great...changes from spot to spot and even wave to wave make "actual" size difficult to discuss..even if you count the back or the front.. youre going to get waves that come from a similar swell size and look totally different as theyre breaking... maybe..as an earlier post said..the best way for surfers to deal with this (as opposed to the method from sci.geo.oceanography)..is just knee high..butt high...waist high..nipple high..etc..a 4 foot wave here is different from a 4 foot wave there..but if i say head high..you know about what im talking about... i gave up using numbers......although i have few short friends who get a little confused sometimes..."head-high?" Toby - Oregon No surf here, try WA ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: dagum@barrel.asd.sgi.com (Leo Dagum) Date: 20 May 1996 18:56:02 GMT It's all relative right? If I'm out with a buddy and the waves are of any consequence, then we down play them. Nothing is ever more than 'solid overhead' (even if they're 15' faces). Or if one of them comes through a little mushy then we'll say "they're shouldering up a bit today", even though you just saw two perfect A-frames go by. Maybe it's machismo but personally I think it's just an effective way of dealing with fear. I'd rather delude myself by playing these games than admit the waves really are big and scary and end up paddling in (or worse yet, freezing up at the wrong moment and getting axed by one of those that didn't "shoulder up"). Of course if your buddies aren't around, then it's always "double overhead and hollow, you really MISSED it dude!" But it's just games we play because if we really want to describe the surf we'll just rattle off the buoy readings for backup "10'/14sec from 285...SOLID overhead". - leo -- Leo Dagum Supercomputer Applications Tel: 415-933-2179 Silicon Graphics, Inc. Fax: 415-933-3562 Mountain View, CA 94043 email: dagum@sgi.com ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: surffohio@aol.com (SurffOhio) Date: 20 May 1996 20:10:46 -0400 In article <4nj05g$q1r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tbmaddux@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy B. Maddux) writes: >>So, with the above data the Hawaiians and World Book are in full >>agreement. > >[ rant mode on ] > >Actually, they are not in agreement. Wave height as the World Book >defines it it is precisely the distance from the top of the crest >to the bottom of the trough. So, a breaking wave's height would be >the distance from the top of the crest to the bottom of the trough, >at the exact moment when the wave *just* begins to break, or when >the water particle velocity at the crest is equal to the wave's >phase speed , and the lip just starts throwing out. ....snipped the rest because I dont understand it and I started to feel dumb.... Jee whiz, my daughter and I just liked the cute picture in World Book about waves. :-) Surff ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Einstein Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:23:46 -0500 I think the thickness of a wave plays an equally big part. Like a wave of the same height in Hawaii is much better than the same sized one in NJ most of the time. Its much more powerful and hollow! SurffOhio wrote: > > In article <4nd1rc$l09@rigel.pixi.com>, sponge@news.ohana.com (Neal > Miyake) writes: > > >In Hawaii, we "measure from the back," meaning, we essentially cut the > >wave face height in half. > > It seems like cutting the wave face height in half is not very precise. > Would it depend on the break characteristics, how much water is sucked > out, etc? > > > The reason (I think) is because of > >Californians in the 50s and 60s sandbagging to surprise newcomers to the > >islands. I know it's stupid, but it's the standard that everyone uses. > > Apparently the reason is due to scientific fact. See below. > > Today my daughter got her Exploring The Ocean book from World Book. They > had a chapter called Wave Makers. The following is an excerpt. > > "The height of a wave is measured from its crest to its trough. The crest > is the wave's highest part or peak. The trough is the lowest part, the > depression the wave makes in the water's surface." > > The picture illustrated the trough as being the depression between two > waves, not the face before it closes out on the beach. > > So, with the above data the Hawaiians and World Book are in full > agreement. > > I am glad. I don't want to see my 10 year old get confused. :-) > > This does bring up a question. If one is riding 25 ft Waimea is he > dropping down a 50 to 75 foot face? Or, is the face height used since it > would sound much more significant than a 10 to 12 footer? If I dropped > down a 25 ft face at Waimea, I would at least feel like I had ridden a 25 > ft wave (after I had gotten done peeing all over myself). > > Sorry Rick C., I guess you've been getting pounded by 3 footers at the > Wedge all this time. :-) I want my damn money back for all those pics you > sold me of the Wedge!!!! > > Ok...........just kiddin. > > Surff -- "Imagination is more important than knowledge!" Einstein mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net http://mars.superlink.net/einstein netscape 2.0 or better http://mars.superlink.net/einstein/einstein.html others ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Sgulie@ix.netcom.com (Steven Gulie) Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:13:10 -0700 Interestingly, the bouys that measure wave height, in ft or meters, don't bob up and down the height of the wave (they don't look over the edge and get scared, either). They estimate the wave size by the angular momentum imparted when the wave passes under the tethered bouy. This is a little like judging the size of a wave by how hard it rings your bell when it slaps you upside the head... So that's how I measure it. Ow! Big one! When I'm watching from the cliffs, I estimate wave height by the face *with a rider on the wave*. If he's cruising down the line, and the lip is above his head, it's *overhead*. This discounts the trough, since the rider is on the face. If it's a sponger, you can still guage it pretty well, since he's stretched out full length on the wave, and you can see how high it is relative to a person's length. A hollow wave is bigger than a crumbling wave of equal height. Huh? No, I mean it. A wave pitches out because the bottom has gotten shallow so suddenly that it can't reach its full height. A given reef can only take a wave of a certain size. Any bigger and it either breaks on a deeper reef outside, or it buckles in the middle before it can even pitch out (weird looking, when it happens). Bizarre side waves like the Wedge defy this logic. So much energy is running sideways and backwards up the beach that it's more like a waterspout than a wave in the classic physics model: it does whatever the hell it wants to, including lurching 25' into the air when it's only 2' deep. A question for da macho boyz who measure it "from the back": You saw it from the back? Why didn't you go? Steve Gulie (sgulie@ix.netcom.com) \... Wilbur would go... ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: Einstein Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:25:52 -0500 jona wrote: > > I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to > take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. > (We all know what is supposed to be the correct way, right?) > > face of the wave just before it breaks > some portion of the face of the wave before it breaks > open ocean deep water swell size > X back of the wave > consensus (I heard others say it was _15__ feet) > conservative (in Hawaii this would be _4___ feet) > local standards (in our locality it would be ___ feet) > double (or whatever) overhead -- "Imagination is more important than knowledge!" Einstein mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net http://mars.superlink.net/einstein netscape 2.0 or better http://mars.superlink.net/einstein/einstein.html others ======== Newsgroups: alt.surfing Subject: Re: How do you JUDGE WAVE SIZE? From: jona@aloha.net (jona) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:25:58 GMT On Sat, 11 May 1996 08:57:55 GMT, jona@aloha.net (jona) wrote: >I hear lots of different methods of judging wave size. I'm going to >take a survey - check the one you believe is correct; one answer only. Thanks for the many replies this thread has elicited - lot's of good responses. First, the answer: surf height is measured on the wave's face, from the trough to the crest. Yes, I know that's just a textbook definition. First point, the BIG GUNS. I spoke with George Downing, one of the first inductees into Surfing's Hall of Fame here in Hawaii. He makes the call on when to hold the Eddie Aikau Quicksilver Waimea big wave contest, minimum 20 ft required for this contest. George said, if you're talking about height use the "dictionary's definition" of height, "vertical", i.e. vertical height of the face before it breaks, despite the fact that there is some addition of height because a wave sucks out some of the water in the trough. I also spoke with Rick Grigg, oceanographer and long time big wave surfer. His answer was measure by the book (oceanography) - the height of the face, trough to crest. He also brought up the interesting point of the psychology of judging wave height. The "correct" measurement will assure acceptance/approval among other surfers (you're "in"); someone who doesn't know how to measure correctly is "out". The idea of group identification is in itself another very interesting topic (new thread? maybe too much analysis; we surf because it's fun). Another surfing great disagreed, however. Rabbit Kekai told me the height is measured from the back of the wave. Second, artificial DISTORTION of what's plain. Mark Cunningham, lifeguard at Ehukai Beach Park (Pipeline) admitted that surfers may have gotten jaded due to their familiarity with waves of all sizes. This was in response to my claim that presently wave heights are underestimated compared to what we judged waves to be around 20 years ago. I lived and surfed on the North Shore of Oahu back then and it seemed people had some consensus about judging size. (I still surf now too) Another well-known big (or small) wave surfer, James Jones, said big waves are underestimated. He said when it reaches 20 ft or more "all objectivity goes out the window". George Mason, meteorologist and professional surf forecaster for Wave Track/Surfline said it's "like beating your head against the wall" in describing his efforts to persuade people that the correct measurement is the face of the wave. In fact, the surf forecast from Wave Track/Surfline will mention "head high", etc. to escape the problem of varying scales of wave measurement. Through George's efforts one of the daily newspapers prints the definition, height measured from trough to crest, under the daily surf forecast. CONCLUSION - are we CONFUSED? I have to admit that there is a good number of surfers here in Hawaii who believe the back of the wave is the height of the surf. The big problem with this is that is the back of the wave has a very gradual slope which makes estimating height very difficult, plus you can't see it from the land. Anyway, replies to my thread reflect this confusion: changing judgement when in another locality, peer group scale, using a body-size scale, reducing the face size by a factor. I contend the back of the wave measurement is also a reflection of a too-conservative measurement. Not only are surfers misled, the surf forecasters are influenced. I am a meteorologist/forecaster for the National Weather Service in Honolulu (a neat job for which I thank the Lord). I spoke against the back-of-the-wave measurement misconception with some of the forecasters here. Even though they know what the book says - they were told by some of the surfers and county water safety employees that surf measurement was actually the back of the wave! We get surf observations from lifeguards and observers that seem to me to be on the conservative side. (Peter Cole never has adjusted his scale downward though.) You've heard of the difference in measuring north shore waves in Hawaii even compared to south shore waves. So we as forecasters are caught in this cycle of incorrect measurements, yet we're issuing forecasts and even high surf advisories based on these "measurements". I do still want to thank all water safety personnel who do a great and courageous job. Inches of rain or snow are easier to measure, right? MY PLEA Let's quit worrying about what others think and call it like it is. I know there is going to be some differences, but we could all realize the benefits of more uniform measurements between different locations around the world. (Sorry so long-winded, yeah!) Jonathan Hoag